Teens Tackling Setbacks with Amy Shoenthal: Learn How to Navigate Through Establish, Embrace, Explore, and Emerge and Come Out Stronger on the Other Side.

What is a setback?

How do you know you are in one, and how do you get out of it?

Join us as we chat with Amy Shoenthal, a bestselling author, journalist, and marketing consultant for big names like Google. She is here to talk about her book, The Setback Cycle.

Amy breaks down what a setback really is, how to know when you're in one, and introduces us to her 4-step setback cycle —establish, embrace, explore, and emerge. We learn how to identify setbacks and work through the 4 phases by asking key questions like what energizes and disengages you.

Even though her book is mostly about business leaders and how their setbacks helped them succeed, Amy shares how teens can use these steps to tackle their own challenges, whether it's school stress, friendship issues, or other problems. Plus, she opens up about her journey of facing rejection after rejection before landing a publishing deal and becoming a bestselling author.

Amy shows us how we can all learn from our challenges and come out stronger on the other side. It was super inspiring to hear Amy's story and see how we can use her tips in our own lives!

Resources
Amy's Website
Amy's Instagram
Read the Book

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Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Setbacks With Amy Schoenthal
• 5:35 Navigating Setbacks
• 18:51 Navigating Setbacks in Writing and Speaking

Transcript

Amy Shoenthal: 0:00

Two of the questions I ask in the alarm clock checklist are what are you energized by and what are you disengaged with? And it's not like what's the best part of your day, because that could be an easy like I hugged my mom, that's great. What were you energized by? The answer to that is much more revealing than what was your favorite part of the day. And then you can ask yourself a second question, which is what am I disengaged with? Where was I really like checking out? Where was I not really, you know, wanting to be there? And if you ask yourself those two questions every day, every couple of days, and you can really make sense of some patterns to see if you might be in a setback. You know if that disengage list is really long or it has some, you know, very clear through line, it's time to really figure out if there's something you can do about it.

Xavier: 0:53

Hi, welcome to Curious Conversations, a podcast for kids, by kids. I'm one of your hosts, xavier.

Emma: 1:01

And I'm your other host, emma, and we're so excited to bring you another season of interesting discussions with people from all walks of life, to learn about their passions and what inspires them.

Xavier: 1:11

We are still as curious as ever, and we hope you will join us on our journey. On today's episode, we are hanging out with Amy Schoenthal. She is a best-selling author, a journalist and a marketing consultant for big names like Google, and she is here to talk to us about her book, the Setback Site. Amy breaks down what a setback really is, how to know when you're stuck in one, and shows us her four-step plan to get out of it. Even though her book is mostly about business leaders and how their setbacks help them succeed, amy also explains how we can use the same steps to deal with our own problems, whether it's at school, with friends or anything else in between. It was super cool to learn how to handle challenges in a whole new way.

Emma: 2:03

Hi Amy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me.

Amy Shoenthal: 2:07

I'm so excited for this Us too.

Xavier: 2:11

So before we talk about your book, we want to talk a little bit about New York. Our cousins live in New York and we love visiting them in the city. What is your favorite part about living in New York?

Amy Shoenthal: 2:22

Oh my God, my favorite part about living in New York is probably just the fact that you can do anything or go anywhere and get whatever kind of food you want, and you can always be around people and good energy and like it's just very, a very communal feeling to be in New York. You are always around other people, you are. You always want to get out of your house. Um, right now I'm in the suburbs, I'm at my sister's house and I feel like everyone is sort of confined to their homes and it's a lot of planning to get together, Um and uh. So that, yeah, I like the city because you. It's more of a spontaneous, communal feel.

Emma: 3:03

I always love visiting New York because there's just so much culture. I think people don't realize that, like some different people from all part of the world, it's pretty diverse.

Amy Shoenthal: 3:13

Yeah, I agree, and I live in Queens, which is, like I think, has representation from like almost every country in the world Like it's a ridiculous place and it has the best food in the whole world, so you'll have to visit Queens next time you come to New York.

Emma: 3:27

What's your favorite food to get in Queens? Greek food.

Amy Shoenthal: 3:31

But that's my favorite food to get anywhere, including in Greece or in Manhattan.

Emma: 3:35

So it's pretty good. So you went to school for journalism and you've written most of your career. Did you always want to write a book?

Amy Shoenthal: 3:46

I did, I did. I always wanted to write a book since I was a little girl and I always made sense of the world through writing and when I was a child I always wrote little stories and when I look back at those stories, they were technically fiction but they were always based on people in my life and so I think I was always supposed to be a journalist slash nonfiction writer, because I think I write the stories of the people and the trends and the culture and, I guess, interesting things that I see around me, yeah, so you kind of write what's around you and what you see, yeah, yeah, so what was your favorite thing about writing a book?

Amy Shoenthal: 4:28

My favorite thing about writing the book was having to really challenge myself to learn an entirely new skill. So I'm telling you that I've been writing my whole life, but I really channeled most of that writing into articles and into my marketing career. You know, and I kind of started writing in short form short articles, short, you know, tweets and social media posts through my marketing career and in writing in such an abbreviated way and training yourself to do that for so long. That is a particular skill and learning to. You know, I also went to school for journalism and to be a journalist, you're really supposed to take yourself out of the story. You're supposed to be objective and share what you see and try to bring in all different viewpoints and not insert your own opinion anywhere. And so I was really and it's the same with marketing when I work with brands, you are not supposed to put any of yourself in there. You're just supposed to be posting on behalf of what a brand should be saying.

Amy Shoenthal: 5:35

And when I wrote the book, a lot of the feedback I got from my editor was well, put your voice in. Like what do you think? Because I was so trained to remove my voice from my writing. I had to like relearn how to put it back in there. So really writing a book, even a nonfiction book, based on the articles I had written, was like learning an entirely new skill, which was really nice, because look, as an adult like you don't have that many opportunities to learn new skills unless you really seek them out. So I really enjoyed it.

Emma: 6:06

Was that one of the hardest things you faced while writing your book and if not, what was the hardest part about it?

Amy Shoenthal: 6:12

That was definitely one of the hardest things I faced, because I wasn't used to doing it, so I had to really really learn how to do it and train and practice doing it. Another thing I really struggled with was the whole editing process, because when you get your first round of edits back on a, you know, 80,000 word manuscript, it's not just like add a comma here, you know, add a space there, remove a period there, it's like explain how this paragraph links back to the overall framework that you're trying to prove. And it was like if there, if I have any critical thinking skills, I had to really just bring them out in the biggest way possible and really really use them, which, again, you know it was nice. It was nice, it was hard, but it was. It was rewarding.

Emma: 7:04

Some of the hardest things are the most rewarding.

Xavier: 7:07

Exactly. So what is your favorite type of book? Do you like making fiction or nonfiction books?

Amy Shoenthal: 7:16

I've only written. Well, I guess I've written technically a fiction book. I wrote a children's book about the small businesses in my neighborhood. It was technically fiction, you know, I made up a story about little kids going around to each store and like trying to find magic. But it was based on real life because it was the actual stores of my neighborhood and the small business owners who owned and operated those stores and the people within the community where I live. So technically that was fiction.

Amy Shoenthal: 7:43

But other than that I really again, I'm a journalist and a nonfiction author and so I really gravitate towards nonfiction. I think for a long time I would say I only want to read a book if I'm learning something. And so I gravitated toward nonfiction books because I felt like they allowed me that continual learning that you don't get once you go into your career, you're out of school, you're not like really learning as much unless you seek it out, and I found nonfiction to be a great way to foster that. But after spending three years researching and writing and editing like, I took a little break from nonfiction and I went on a big fiction kick this past year. So I've been reading a lot of really sort of not mindless, but like interesting books that aren't making me smarter, and that's okay too. So I read for learning, for curiosity, but also for enjoyment.

Xavier: 8:37

So how did it feel when one of your books became a bestseller?

Amy Shoenthal: 8:42

I don't even know. I don't even know how to answer that I was shocked. I was so surprised because I'm, you know, not a celebrity or influencer level person and that actually prevented me from getting a book deal for a long time. You know, they look at how many Instagram followers you have and how many newsletter subscribers you have, and I only have a couple thousand, so it wasn't seen as like a slam dunk. We're definitely going to sell, you know, 15,000 books the first week, and so I did not think I was going to make any bestseller lists. But I was fine with that. You know, I had made peace with it. It wasn't like it wasn't even a goal that I had.

Amy Shoenthal: 9:19

You know, I thought maybe I'd get in an Amazon category somewhere. You know, I just wanted to get this book out in the world and when my agent called me, I was actually in a cab on my way from a client meeting to go speak at Google. So it was already a pretty good day because I was in this client meeting that I was happy about, like I had done a pretty good job, and then I was in a car on the way to go speak at Google, which is a pretty big deal to go speak at Google. And then my agent called and she said I just want to let you know you're like number 75 on the USA Today bestseller list, which means you like sold the most books. You were number 75 sold the most books in the country this week. And I was like, are you kidding? Like it was, it was a goal I didn't even have for myself. So to say I surpassed it like doesn't even do it justice. So the best surprise ever book launch week was better than I could have even imagined.

Emma: 10:13

And did your book get on the bestseller list right away, or did it take a few weeks?

Amy Shoenthal: 10:18

Yeah, first two weeks it was out it was on the bestseller list, so it was pretty cool.

Emma: 10:22

Yeah, that's great. So, speaking more on your book, can you talk to us more about the four stages of the setback cycle cycle establish, embrace, explore and emerge?

Amy Shoenthal: 10:33

Sure. So the setback cycle is really a framework for helping people navigate their own inevitable setbacks, whether in their career, school, education, relationships, life because setbacks are just a very universal human experience. We will all have them. There will be different levels of setbacks, but what we can do is understand what they are and how to work through them. And so I have this four E's framework what they are and how to work through them. And so I have this four E's framework.

Amy Shoenthal: 11:09

The first phase is established because so often we don't even realize that we're entering into a setback and we kind of just keep going along because you know, we had this prior plan to do something and we want to push through and keep going, even if it has failed or even if it's not really serving us anymore. So step one is just naming it and acknowledging the moment you're in. You are in a setback. You have to go through the cycle to work your way out of it. So that's phase one establish. Once you establish you're in a setback, you go to phase two, which is embrace. When I say embrace I don't mean like get really happy that you're in a setback and embrace it and welcome it, like we're not happy to be here. But by embrace I mean just acknowledge the reality of your situation and take what you can from it. Like you just said, the hardest, you know, the hardest things are always the most rewarding. And this is kind of when you have to really dig into why this moment is so hard, is so difficult to get through. Did you make a mistake? Did someone else make a mistake? Are you blaming them? Are you, you know, kind of giving yourself a little bit of compassion to help yourself get through it? What information can you collect that will inevitably make you better in the long run? So it's like embrace is really just asking what can I learn from this? Whether I did something, whether someone else did something like? What is the information I can collect to allow me to learn and move forward?

Amy Shoenthal: 12:33

So then, once you get through embrace, you go to phase three, which is explore, and explore is just my favorite phase. It is so much fun because in explore, we get to do just that. We get to go play. We don't have to commit to anything yet, we just get to go see what our options are. What are we passionate about? Where are our strengths? I have a whole exercise that allows you to figure out what your unique superpower is, because even if we're all good at the same stuff like you get a really good grade in writing or reading there's a reason you're good at that and so this helps you dig into why you as a person are uniquely. You know, a superhero.

Amy Shoenthal: 13:13

So it's a very fun phase and it gives you a little bit more clarity. It takes the information you got during embrace and helps you put that information to use and you can go test ideas out within your community. You know, see where your passions and your strengths really intersect, and that's what helps you move to the final phase of the setback cycle, which is Emerge. This is when you come out of your setback and it's wonderful, it feels great, but it's also hard because now you really have to sort of abandon the plans that you had, mourn them and you know, say goodbye and move forward into whatever new plan you have made and kind of act on whatever strategy you have set forth for yourself.

Amy Shoenthal: 14:12

And what was the inspiration, if any, for the like Establish, embrace, explore and Emerge realized wow, I need a whole phase for the people who don't even realize they're in a setback yet. And I think at first it was three phases and it was five phases and at some point we came down to four. So it was a lot of writing, especially when you're writing a book. But I feel this way about articles and you know everything that I do A lot of it is really just like putting together a puzzle, like, does this fit here? Does this support this first argument that I'm making? And then you know you kind of go down into the later part of the manuscript and you think, wait, actually maybe this goes further up in the beginning, and so you're just kind of chopping it up and putting it together in a way that you hope eventually makes sense when it goes to print.

Xavier: 14:56

So when you get a setback, how long would you stay in the setback cycle before you think the setback is over or it ends?

Amy Shoenthal: 15:06

unfortunately, there's really no set time frame for working through a setback because everyone's setback is so different. You know, um, you're, let's say, you're going out the door in the morning and you have um, like sports practice after school, and you need to bring your uniform, but you can't find your uniform, and so you're running all over the house. You need to bring your uniform, but you can't find your uniform, and so you're running all over the house, you're digging through your laundry, and then you're late and you miss, you know, your math test at first period. Like that's a setback right, it's a setback because you made a little mistake. But you're going to work through that setback cycle over the course of a day, probably, you know, maybe a couple of weeks if you have to make up the math test. That's a quick one, you know. Then there are bigger setbacks, you know ending a friendship, getting through a fight with a friend, things like that, and that that takes quite a bit, quite a bit longer.

Emma: 15:54

And how does one know when they are through with one step of the setback cycle and can move on?

Amy Shoenthal: 16:00

I think knowing is really. It's just so personal and it's really up to you. I have so many conversations with people that say they say, oh, I think I'm an explorer now and I have to be like I don't know, I think you're still an embrace, like I don't think you're quite there yet. You know, I think you need a little more information. Or I just had a conversation with a client of mine I help coach people through you know, career setbacks, and and she said you know, I think I'm finally an explorer. I'm so happy to tell you this. And I said I don't know, I think you're in a merge and so you kind of have to. I think it can be something that you decide for yourself, but you can also share where you think you are with other people and see what they say, because sometimes other people can see you. Where you think you are with other people and see what they say, because sometimes other people can see you more clearly than you can see yourself.

Emma: 16:48

And what would you say is the most impactful stage of the setback?

Amy Shoenthal: 16:52

cycle I think embraces, because that's where you have to get introspective and collect the information and make sure that you understand what sent you into this setback so that you can prepare for future ones and try not to repeat any. You know bad patterns or things like that.

Xavier: 17:12

How do you know if you're going through a setback?

Amy Shoenthal: 17:16

I have something in the established phase called the alarm clock checklist and it's meant to wake you up if you think you might be sleepwalking through a setback, because sometimes we enter into setbacks and we are totally unconscious of it and it takes something to wake us up, to kind of shake us and say you are in a setback. Now I created this alarm clock checklist so that hopefully we can do this for ourselves. But it depends. It depends how ready you are to acknowledge the moment you're in and be ready to change. Two of the questions I ask in the alarm clock checklist are what are you energized by and what are you disengaged with? So if you can think every day before you start your day or even at the end of the day, you can do this.

Amy Shoenthal: 18:01

You can say okay, what did I do today, what was I energized by? And it's not like what's the best part of your day, because that could be an easy like I hugged my mom. That's great. What were you energized by? That's much. The answer to that is much more revealing than what was your favorite part of the day. And then you can ask yourself a second question, which is what am I disengaged with? Where was I really like checking out when was I not really, you know, wanting to be there and if you ask yourself those two questions, like if you journal, you can ask yourself those two questions every day, every couple of days and you can really make sense of some patterns to see if you might be in a setback. You know if that disengage list is really long or it has some, you know, very clear through line, it's time to really figure out if there's something you can do about it.

Emma: 18:51

So your book is more targeted towards adults, but how do you think teenagers and even younger kids can apply the lessons of the setback cycle to their experiences?

Amy Shoenthal: 19:01

That's such a great question and I think they can apply it in the same way adults can. I think teenagers, you know you are experiencing new things all the time. All the time You're learning new things in school. You're dealing, you know, unfortunately sometimes with like complicated friendships or evolving and changing friend group dynamics. You're potentially playing sports and losing sometimes or not making a team, so you're dealing with setbacks very consciously all the time.

Amy Shoenthal: 19:34

If you have these tools, though, I think you'll be able to better navigate that disappointment when you have a setback If you don't make the team, if you don't get a good grade, if you fail a class. You know, go through the phases, go through the exercises. There's like a little workbook at the back of the book. You can go through that to just kind of help yourself through it. I actually think adults need this book more because we can fall so easily into routines and I think adults can become a little bit more unconscious and out of practice at dealing with setbacks, because we are, you know, we're not always pushing ourselves to learn new things and try new things as adults when we get into our routine. So I actually think you guys are much better set up to work through the setback cycle because you're practicing it all the time.

Xavier: 20:28

So, when you're writing your book, did you have any setbacks? And if you did, what was the biggest setback?

Amy Shoenthal: 20:36

Oh my goodness, I had so many. I mean, like I said, when I first shopped this book around and tried to get a publisher to buy it, to publish it, I got a lot of rejection. I had a lot of people telling me you know, you don't have a big enough platform, meaning I don't have a big enough social media following. I'm not an influencer or celebrity that has a built-in audience, so we're not sure who's going to read this book, you know. So that was a huge setback. I was rejected so much.

Amy Shoenthal: 21:04

But what I found in those rejections was information and feedback. You know, it didn't. It wasn't only luckily, it wasn't only you don't have a platform, it was. I don't think you have a platform, so you need to build it a little bit, and I think you need to, you know, make these couple of changes to the book if you want it to get published. And a lot of the feedback was very consistent and I took the feedback and I worked on the proposal for another like six months and then I shopped it around again and that's when I got my agent and then my agent and I worked on the proposal for another three months and then I got the book deal.

Amy Shoenthal: 21:43

And so from the time you know it's about a year in between when I first started shopping it around to when I actually got the book deal, and there was a lot of back and forth and a lot of setbacks and a lot of moments where I thought this might not happen, but I kind of like took my own advice, like I, I embraced it and I took the feedback and I said, okay, this is what I need to do to keep going.

Amy Shoenthal: 22:03

And I remember one editor saying to me wow, I read this. You know, I had given her my proposal to read when I first shopped it around and then I gave it to her the second time and she said I can't believe you're still working on this, like so many people would have quit by now. And I was like, no, this book is happening. This is absolutely happening. So one thing I really learned is motivation is the biggest predictor of success and if you're motivated to do something, you will succeed. You will get it done because you are just so motivated to keep going, no matter how many times you get kicked down.

Emma: 22:38

What would be your most important piece of advice to young writers? Just keep writing.

Amy Shoenthal: 22:44

Keep writing, even if you get bad feedback, even if someone tells you your writing isn't good. Just keep writing and keep finding outlets for your writing. When I graduated college, I took a job in marketing and I built up a really big marketing career for 20 years. Right, I still do marketing because I needed to pay my bills and pay off my student loans and I'm really proud of that career. But I'm also really proud that I kept writing on the side. You know, I never stopped and it took different forms. You know, in the early, like 2010s, I had a little travel blog, you know. Then I started writing for Forbes. At some point I wrote for a real estate publication and I just, I just always found opportunities to write and eventually it took a long time. It took a long, long time, but eventually I I got a lot of visibility and success and I got the book deal and and here we are- Aside from writing, you're also a pretty well-known speaker.

Emma: 23:44

Where do you speak at? And is it always about the setback cycle, or do you kind of just have a variety of topics you talked about?

Amy Shoenthal: 23:51

I definitely speak on a variety of topics. Back when crypto was like a big, hot new thing, I was doing a lot of reporting on the world of crypto, and so I was invited to speak about it because I think people were just very curious to learn about it, and so they wanted to hear from a journalist who was interviewing some of the most prominent voices in crypto, and so I think I started speaking a lot around that time. I speak a lot about entrepreneurship because I have interviewed many entrepreneurs and I am a founder myself, and so I speak about that. I speak about parenthood and navigating work with being a parent and, you know, being a woman. It's like there's a lot there and there's a lot of, I think, speaking engagements available on those topics. It's of great interest to a lot of working parents.

Amy Shoenthal: 24:40

And, yes, over the past year, I have definitely been speaking a lot about the setback cycle. I just did a TEDx talk and, yes, over the past year, I have definitely been speaking a lot about the setback cycle. I just did a TEDx talk, and so that was very exciting. That was all about, you know, the frame. I took people through the framework for the setback cycle, but I positioned it as you know why setbacks actually set the stage for reinvention. So I talked about the more dramatic side of setbacks.

Emma: 25:02

And what would you say is more impactful the speaking part of your career or the writing part of your career?

Amy Shoenthal: 25:07

Well, I think they go together really because, like you guys, you know, I get invited onto a lot of podcasts and I have a lot of people who say you know, I bought your book but I haven't read it yet. Tell me about it. Sometimes people want to digest information like this, you know, in an interview format, and I have the information and I'm happy to share it in whatever way you want to digest it, whether that is sitting down and reading a you know 200 something page book, whether it is listening to the audio book, or whether it's listening to me on a podcast, or listening to me speak on a stage about this information that I've spent years collecting and becoming an expert on. So I think it's really all of the above they work together.

Emma: 25:53

And what would be one piece of advice you would give to a younger person who maybe has just experienced their first big setback, or a very lasting setback that has an impact on their life, either negative or positive? What would you, what's one piece of advice you would give them?

Amy Shoenthal: 26:09

I would just say your world may feel like it is caving in right now, but your life is just beginning. Like this will be a blip one day. Just work through it, get through it and I promise this will not affect you in the way you are feeling it right now. You know at some point in the future. But don't ignore it. Like don't ignore those really complicated, difficult, like sometimes terrible feelings. Do not ignore them. You really need to absorb them and feel them because otherwise, if you try to push them down, they're going to come up in unhealthy ways down the road. So you will get through this, you will be better for it and it will not feel as big as it does right now.

Emma: 26:50

Well, thank you so much. It was lovely speaking to you and I think us, and as well as our audience, will learn a lot through this episode.

Amy Shoenthal: 26:58

Thank you, thank you so much.

Emma: 27:00

Thank you. So much. Thank you for listening and I know all the shows. You probably listened to say this, but if you enjoy this episode, please follow and rate the podcast.

Xavier: 27:10

Also, we would love to connect with you and hear your thoughts about our episodes. You can find us on Instagram or visit our website. The links are in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. Bye.